Posted 157 days ago

Interview with Pastor James (Missional Church)

MSA: Would you describe the Capitol Hill neighborhood?

JK: Capitol Hill was “the suburbs” 100 years ago. Now it’s an inner-city neighborhood that has a very diverse population. It has a lot of youth, a lot of college students, a lot of condos that are coming in now, so it’s even more a residential area than it has been. It is an arts district, known as a hub of fringe theater. There are a lot of art galleries, dance troupes, arts groups, and Cornish College of the Arts is here. It is known as the gay capital of the state of Washington. In fact, that’s what it is most know for. When people think of Capitol Hill, they think of the Gay Pride March. This neighborhood actually has two chambers of commerce. There’s the Straight Chamber of Commerce and the Gay Chamber of Commerce. There’s another part of Capitol Hill that’s much more residential—higher-income people that like to live close to downtown. We’re in more of the gritty, urban part. Our neighborhood has a lot of homeless people, mentally ill people that walk the street, lots of drug use. We have a lot of people *shooting up heroin on the premises during the week. We have people having sex on the property due to the prostitution that happens in this neighborhood. So, the neighborhood is a mix.
Where we are in Capitol Hill is very postmodern. I’ve done a lot of study on the challenges of doing church in a changing culture. I took a class in it in Edinburgh, Scotland, a couple years ago. Some people think that Scotland is where our modern world was born. I think it’s also easy to say that Scotland is the first post-modern culture. They are profoundly postmodern, which I think is modernity living itself out to the raggedy edges of what modern means; it’s hyper-modern, hyper-individualistic, hyper-critical, secular, agnostic. It seemed to me that Scotland is about forty years ahead of a place like Atlanta, GA. The South is still able to function, in a lot of ways, with the modern world still in tact. The culture hasn’t begun to disintegrate into disconnected groups of individuals. Seattle seems to be right in the middle, about 20 years behind Scotland and 20 years ahead of the South. Capitol Hill is a particularly postmodern part of Seattle. So it’s very interesting doing ministry in this area because the culture here is the direction the rest of the country is headed.

MSA: Your mission statement says CHP is “A missional community devoted to the life-changing reality of Jesus Christ—growing in Faith, sharing the Hope, serving in Love—one another, Capitol Hill, and to the ends of the earth.” What does “missional community” mean in this church?

JK: Well, first off, we’re not there yet, but it’s where we believe we are called to go, and we’re working hard to do that. To be “missional” means we are called together for a purpose larger than ourselves. That’s simply it. Psalm 67 calls on God to bless His people so that they may be a blessing to all nations. I think that is at the heart of God and you see it all through Scripture, especially at the beginning with the call of Abraham. To be a “community” is to take a diverse group of people that come from all over the city and have them develop a set of interdependent relationships so they can help each other become disciples of Jesus Christ, to be transformed through their interactions with him, not as individuals, but together. Both of these things are profoundly counter-cultural because, especially in the Northwest, we tend to be self-centered and individualistic. Capitol Hill Presbyterian feels called to come together as a community and to be about something that is larger than ourselves.

MSA: In addition to the Psalm 67 passage, what are some of the other biblical images and passages that influence the mission of the church?

JK: Certainly the great commission in Matthew 28 where Jesus says “Go and make disciples of all nations.” We are called to go and to be disciple-makers, and that’s what we’re trying to do. What’s interesting with the school across the street [Seattle Central Community College] is that we have international students on our doorstep. John 3:16: “God so loved the world that he gave His only son.” The same kind of love that God expressed through Jesus is in our hearts and compels us to go out and to share this love—to try and be a blessing. John 3:16 is corny and you see it at the ball games, but it really is a very missional verse, because when you look at the mission of God par excellence, it’s Jesus Christ. He’s the Word of God sent to the world. Isaiah 55 is another big one: “My thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways. But as high as the heavens are above the earth, so are my ways and your ways, my thoughts and your thoughts.” And then it talks about the word, that the Word goes forth into the world and it will not return to me void. The Word is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ in our midst is going out to accomplish the work for which he was sent to us. The reason I’m emphasizing this is that it’s not our mission. This is a multi-cultural community of redeemed sinners that are sent to do something that may be totally counter-intuitive to us. But it’s God’s own peculiar work through us.

MSA: There seems to also be an emphasis on “sending out” and “going forth.” Is that a part of the community now or is that the vision?

JK: That’s been part of the community from the beginning at Church at the Center. It’s always been going, in fact, to the point where we’re really feeling a call from God to the leadership to spend a season of getting our house in order. We’re going through a time of transformation to attend to the roots so that we can be even more fruitful.

MSA: In addition to the Bible, what other influences are there for the missional community?

JK: There’s a story I like to tell. When I was one of the final candidates to be the senior pastor at Church at the Center, I was at a meet-and-greet with some of the leadership of the church. And I had a guy sidle up to me and say, “If you can answer me this one question, you are our new pastor.” Obviously, I was all ears. I said, “What’s the question?” He says, “Who is Paul Hewson?” And I thought to myself, I have no idea who Paul Hewson is. [laughs] And he goes, “It’s alright.” I say, “Who is he?” “It’s Bono.”

If this church could be anything, I think it would like to be a church that Bono would come to. In fact, I’ve jokingly called it the Church of St. Bono. One of the reasons we’re involved in the AIDS pandemic in Africa is because he lifted it up. World Vision took him to Africa and showed him what was going on and he became and advocate for their involvement there. And we followed suit.
We wish to be a church that really listens to the contemporary culture in order to understand the questions that are being asked by the culture. One of the ways we bring this to the service is by having special music—a song that (usually) is not a Christian song—that the band plays it right before the sermon. The special music somehow expresses a longing that is out there in the world, in our culture, that can be met by God and the Gospel that we preach. Or it is evidence of how the Spirit of God is at work outside the four walls of the church. It’s a way of lifting that up. We are trying to be accessible to people; we are trying to make “church” an understandable experience for people who have not been to church before.

Another influence for me as a pastor has been The Missional Leader by Alan Roxburgh. It’s the book that’s really helped me— It’s the best I’ve read most recently in terms of not just having a theory of how to change a church from “maintenance” to a missional model, but having a process laid out in the book. It’s basically about the church discovering what it’s supposed to be again.

MSA: What’s the felt-need of this neighborhood for Capitol Hill Presbyterian Church?

JK: This neighborhood needs a church. Oh my Lord, this is not a “together” neighborhood.

MSA: So, was that part of the decision to move up here?

JK: Well, our need was that we were hemorrhaging money and needed a building. Church at the Center had a congregation without a building and Westminster had a building without much of a congregation. So it made all kinds of sense for us to come together. They were a small group of people, averaging 10 or 15 in worship that were holding the torch of the Gospel up in the midst of a very dark neighborhood, just waiting for Jesus to show up on the bus. That’s what a former pastor of Westminster said, that if Jesus decided to come on the bus and bring all the people, then they would come. This was once a church of a thousand people, so when we came together, it was like Jesus had shown up on the bus, unloaded 200 people and now we have this vibrant ministry.

This is a neighborhood— Let’s talk about spiritual warfare; we are the church militant because Christ came to defeat the devil and his works in order to re-establish God as ruler of this world. And that is very much contested in a battle that’s happening all around the world, but detected particularly in the church. This neighborhood is a war zone when it comes to that. There are people that love this neighborhood and want to see it thrive. And then there are others that wish to see it torn apart. We see the scourge of heroin, methamphetamines, alcoholism, the club scene and the rampant sexual perversity, where you see pornographic images on street poles. It’s just accepted in this neighborhood that that’s ok. There are these parties where unspeakable things are happening, and people are being degraded and degrading each other. I heard someone talking about people walking down the streets as bodies without souls. The level of spiritual attack, in terms of noticing Satan’s presence on this hill, is more palpable than any place I have ever been, except perhaps some places in Africa. It’s like he no longer needs to be subtle, like he is out in the suburbs; he can just walk around in broad daylight in chains, tats, black wings and whatever. It’s crazy—I go get my haircut and there’s pornography out on the tables. It’s just what you read. It’s not Field and Stream, it’s not Highlights, it’s pornography! Why is that OK? But in this neighborhood, it’s accepted. It’s a battleground.

This is a church that really was in decline, so the felt need was that this neighborhood needed a church. People need to see the light of the gospel. They need to know that God loves them and cares for them. And not only that—that Jesus has defeated these forces that are trying to destroy them, and if they come and cling to Jesus, and they call on his help, he has the firepower to handle their problems. The Gospel is not about putting a spit shine on your marriage or your happy suburban life. We get people that are shipwrecks and come in with problems that only God can solve.

In terms of felt need, you get these people that are in such desperate need. The other day I was going to a Cub Scout banquet (a pretty suburban thing to be doing) and there was a guy out front, huddled up in a corner. I said, “Are you OK?” And he looks at me and he goes, “I’m trying to decide whether or not to kill myself right now.” And I think to myself, “Well, I guess I’ll be a little late for the Cub Scout meeting.” It’s one of those things—instead of a normal, middle-class, healthy life, suddenly you’re on the front lines of a war zone where Satan is trying to destroy people. This guy turned out to have a history of abuse by a stepparent, had been involved with heroin for probably sixteen years, and this guy wasn’t even out of his 20s yet. He was rugged, with scars on every major vein from top to bottom. So, yes, this neighborhood needs the light of the Gospel.

The arts for Capitol Hill are a huge bridge.

MSA: Can you expand on that?

JK: So glad you asked. I met my wife on Capitol Hill twenty years ago. I wasn’t a preacher; I was an acting student at Cornish [College for the Arts], and she was also. She became a Christian soon after we met and we spent a lot of time talking and dreaming about God and the church and theatre and reaching people with God’s love through the arts in this neighborhood. It’s remarkable that, twenty years later, I find myself married to Christie and being able to minister to this community, using the arts as a bridge and a way of trying to value something that the community values, to be able to use it as a way to communicate God’s love.

MSA: How do you use art in the church?

JK: Well, not as much as I’d like. Preaching’s been a big one. I’m intentionally a little theatrical in preaching, but that’s just because I love it and it’s fun.

MSA: Preaching or theatricality?

JK: Preaching. Being enthusiastic and theatrical in preaching. But being “theatrical” doesn’t mean what a lot of Christians think it means, which is to be a hypocrite. The Greek word for actor is hypokrites; they speak words that really belong to somebody else. For me, what I found at Cornish was my true voice. And true preaching—good preaching—has a lot to do with good acting: when you hear the person preaching, just as when you hear a person acting, if they’re doing a good job, you believe them. In fact, a lot of times when we see characters that are well-played, on TV or movies or whatever, we believe that’s the person and we have a hard time disassociating that person with their character. They have brought themselves to the role. It’s the same with preaching. The first question that people ask when they listen to a preacher is “do they believe what they’re saying?” You can hear that in the voice.

My wife has done the best job [with using art at CHP]. She does a youth musical every year, which we do down in the basement. We built a small theater, and I got a lot of my old Cornish friends to do stage combat and lighting. The youth have just done some delightful performances. It’s great because people come with really low expectations—they think, “OK, I’m doing this for the kids”—but when they come, they see something that is really creative and well-done, and it becomes a real joy for them. That’s been one expression.

We have an arts group that meets every Thursday. They’re an outreach group, meaning that it’s a place community artists can come and do fine art. They are gradually filling the building with art. Also with the sermon series, I have artists creating art for the bulletins and original art for the kiosk out front. We have a Goth artist who did a whole series on Acts called “A Series of Fortunate Events” where we turned the whole chancel area into a kind of study and I did a riff off Lemony Snicket. In the world of A Series of Unfortunate Events, all these terrible things happen, and the message is: “Don’t get your hopes up because they will always be dashed.” All kinds of terrible things happen in Acts, but it always turns out well.

We also have an artist-in-residence who produces power points for each Sunday service that are rich in original art. We have a holiday art bizarre, which is something the artists are doing to connect to the community. We have Iconostasis, which is a worship service on the first Friday of every month in the evening, that employs art at several stations so people can interact individually and together with Scripture, using the five senses on the understanding that we are called to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. The art is a good way of doing that. And we have an arts elder, whose sole job is to support the artists of this church and look at ways in which we can reach out to other artists and somehow do ministry.

I’m hoping to do more with the arts, but again, it’s not my will. It’s always a process and an adventure too. We’re not trying to do this cool and groovy thing to be cool and groovy, although the temptation of being young is that everyone wants to be spectacular. And as an actor, that’s what I wanted to be. I wanted to be a star on Broadway years ago. So that’s something God’s had to deal with with me. [laughs]

MSA: Tom Sine quotes evangelist Tom Skinner all the time, who said something to the effect of, “Let’s be honest; we tithe to ourselves,” which means that we give money to the church for programs that will only benefit us. How does Capitol Hill Presbyterian see their finances as part of the missional community and what amount of money goes to outside ministries?

JK: When Church at the Center was in crisis five years ago, the session decided that, even though we didn’t have enough money to pay our bills, we needed to begin to tithe as a church to the cause of Christ outside the four walls of the church. Through all the ups and downs, and there have been some very, very tight financial times, we have kept that commitment, and it’s been very important to the church. I’d like the see that expanded, but at this time, the outreach budget continues to be a tithe. And that goes to New Horizons, City Team, Mexico trips, and the partnership with World Vision. It also goes to our ministry to Seattle Central Community College next door. It also goes to some other things like Oasis at the Capitol Hill Block Party. The Block Party is probably the biggest indie music block party anywhere, or so the promoters say, but it’s huge! Everyone’s punked, inked, the average age is like 17, and the music’s loud. I remember they introduced one band like this: “And now, from the pit of Hell…!” We have put together a church booth for the last two years called Oasis where we give out free water (the Water of Life), free prayer in a prayer booth, and bubbles. You haven’t lived until you’ve seen one of these grunged out, dour-looking kids come up to the booth, and we say, “You want some water?” “OK.” “You want some prayer?” “Nah, I don’t need prayer.” “You want some bubbles?” “Bubbles? I love bubbles!” And they pop the top of the bubbles and start running around like pixies. [laughs] Cause they’re kids! Everyone loves bubbles—they’re non-sectarian.
Some people come to the booth and we pray for them. We had one guy who wanted prayer for sobriety. The gal who was praying for him said, “Oh, I just got my Two Year Pin! How long have you been sober?” And he says, “I’m not. I haven’t even gotten my Ten Minute Pin; I have to sober up first.” He was in crisis. That’s outreach right there. That’s where the money goes.

MSA: You mentioned “getting the house in order” earlier. What does that mean and will that change where the money goes for better or for worse?

JK: It will. Getting our house in order will substantially reduce pastoral staff, bolster the support staff a little, and really create some space for the congregation to take initiative in outreach. Pastors stand in the way of ministry all the time, and they do it unintentionally. They have no idea that their desire to help becomes a hindrance a lot of the time, because people will let them help, they will refer to the pastor, and then the pastors end up doing things that are not their call. Our call is to feed the sheep as ministers of word and sacrament, and then you let the sheep go do the ministry.

MSA: Understanding that “missional community” is a process, where is CHP in the process? What would you like to see happen in the short term and the long term? And also, what kinds of challenges and opposition have you met in the process?

JK: The main thing that I wish to see in our community is to go from being internally-focused to externally-focused. The simple way of doing this is being disciple-makers. None of these answers are new. The application is different because the world has changed, but the answers are still the same. To be a disciple-maker means you’re going to be externally-focused, and that’s what we’re trying to do. We are trying to make it so we are all discipling one another and being discipled. At this point, the challenge is trying to do that more effectively within the ministry we have already—so, with the people we have coming, like homeless folks, people from Section 8 housing, international students. We’re looking at improving the work of discipling our youth and our children. By removing two of the pastors, I think it will really help make room for lay ministers to step forward. I’m looking forward to that.

One of the things I’m personally feeling called to is working with immigrant fellowships that the Seattle Presbytery has been nurturing. There’s a Vietnamese fellowship, Taiwanese, mainland Chinese, Kenyan, and some others; there used to be a Persian fellowship. I think that all these ethnic fellowships in our midst are going to show the Anglo church how to be missional.
In terms of leadership, we’re in the midst of a time of transformation. We’re really feeling the Lord calling us to do a complete top-to-bottom change. I think the biggest force against “missional,” in a phrase, is “the consumer culture.” We want to have a good time, and church becomes a place where we seek not so much to be edified as to be stimulated, not to go off and change our lives, but to say, “That was a good sermon!” What they’re really saying is “I liked that story; it really moved me, and I had an emotional experience. Now I can go off and have my latte and go on with my life.” They are not looking to change their lives or give their lives away.

We’re looking at a change in governance. The pastor used to be the vision-holder of the church—in America, we’ve come to see the pastor as the CEO—but the traditional Presbyterian form of government sees the pastor as the teaching elder and the lay leaders as the ruling elders, and this is really counter-cultural. The pastor teaches the Word of God and administers the sacraments, but he doesn’t have the vision of the church. He does that to form and grow up the members of the church so they can have leadership in the church and decide the direction of the church, or what the ministry focus is. That has been liberating beyond anything I could ever possibly imagine. That’s something that’s happened this year, where I found that the old Church at the Center model had a pastor as the vision-keeper. I heard that from people all the time: “You’re supposed to have the vision. You’re supposed to tell us where to go.” And what I realized is that by me taking that on, I’ve found myself saddled with a lot of administrative responsibilities that have kept me from teaching the Word of God. That has also kept people from really leading in their ministry areas. I realize that as a missional leader, and I get this from Alan Roxburgh’s book The Missional Leader, I need to set up spaces where leaders can come and, informed by the biblical story, start to seek God for leadership in their area of ministry, where they can then discern God’s work. That is stimulating. It gets people excited when they say, “You’re going to use your pastoral authority to give me permission to do my ministry and to really have a significant impact on this church and the ministry of this church.” Then people are engaged.

MSA: So, would you say that people are just beginning the process?

JK: When you’re living your life as you’re following God, it always feels like you’re just beginning. Even though you’ve worked hard to do all this stuff, suddenly you feel you’ve done it all to get to the point you are now. That’s what it feels like with this church: everything that we’ve done, everything that I’ve done in my life and ministry over the last 25 years has brought us to this moment of transformation. It makes me wonder what will happen in the next year, in the next two years.
MSA: Well, thank you very much!
JK: Thank you! And good luck with all that verbage.

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